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Comment on this entry

Universal Superlongevity: Is It Inevitable And Is It Good?


Mark Walker


in Death And Anti-Death, Volume 3: Fifty Years After Einstein, One Hundred Fifty Years After Kierkegaard Charles Tandy, Ph.D., Editor. Ingram.

February 17, 2006

[This is an early version of the essay]

Abstract

To the extent that it is possible to predict the composition of the future population of the world, I argue that the most likely scenario is that (almost) everyone will choose to adopt technology to live hundreds of years, perhaps indefinitely. Further, ethically speaking, this seems like the best option for our world, for such a world is one where there are higher levels of happiness and achievement.


...

Complete entry


COMMENTS



Posted by Rob  on  02/25  at  06:39 PM

Hi Mark,

Thanks for the thought-stimulating article! Some comments:

In the population model presented, it seems as though the replacement rate would be applied to EVERYONE, not just the mortal. There is no assumption given that long-lived individuals won't breed at the replacement rate. So if reproduction continued only at the replacement rate, there would be an increase in population as long-lived individuals had replacement
offspring but did not die.

There is at least some reason to speculate that very long-lived individuals may actually reproduce above the replacement rate. Assuming that such individuals retained the capabilities of the relatively "young", I would not be surprised to see second or third relationships yielding children as a way of further strengthening a relationship, or even out of a desire to see how a different pairing results in differences in children. After all, if one might live for a thousand years, the 20 or so years that it takes to raise a child may seem pretty trivial, to be undertaken whenever it seemed interesting.

If one then chooses to hold the population constant (that is, no growth; which seems like a relatively arbitrary decision given no other information) then we get in to a situation where whatever factors are conspiring to keep the population steady force increased pressure on members of the population, potentially leading to revolts on one side or another (or the creation or exacerbation of factions not strictly aligned on the long-/short-lived spectrum) resulting in people being selected to die in some way (lottery, war, etc) to relieve the pressure. Worth keeping in mind is that pressure is likely to be applied across all individuals living at the time, not just the mortals.

One thing one might consider to help relieve this pressure would be to offer individuals large cash payments to maintain a "short-lived" life. This, on the face of it, solves very little in that as long as the long-lived continue to breed they will continue to put pressure on whatever is acting to stabilize the population (resources, for example). Since it seems likely that individuals would not be considered old enough to actively decide to live a short life until after the age where a short-lived individual would be able to conceive and care for children, it is therefore unlikely that rules that a free society are likely to adopt would be abe to successfully curb the expanding population.

Speaking of resources, things get complicated when one talks about resources too far into the future assuming that individuals are undertaking bio-modification of some sort or another. Given the present rate of technological progress, and the fact that life extension body modifications are likely to be developed concurrently, or at least only slightly ahead
of modifications for less dire reasons (such as improving the capabilities/efficiencies of the body system). It is therefore likely that whatever modifications humans undertake to themselves is likely to significantly alter the resources required to sustain an individual body. This may come from such abilities as to reconfigure ones body to suit a situation, which may allow an individual to adopt a much less resource heavy physical construction until need for a more resource-heavy body is required. This could alternately be accomplished by separating one's "consiousness" entirely from any physical presence,
again, except when needed. Inded, if consciousness is able to be separated from a physical body and Moore's law keeps moving along for several more generations, then an "individual" may take up very few resources at all (and any further efficiencies discovered would likely be easily propigated to all other "individuals" existing at the time).

I

Interestingly, if superlongevity does come about, it seems very likely that views on suicide will need to change at least somewhat. If it is theoretically possible for someone to live forever, we are likely to have to respect the will of some percentage of this long-lived population to be done with their living experience and either opt out of further life-supporting care or, equally likely, actively terminate their mortal existance. I wouldn't be surprised to find, hundreds of years hence, age of consent laws that treat suicide as akin to drinking: you must be old enough (say, 50 or 75) to be considered to have enough experience to make an informed choice.



It would be interesting if the backlash over the ability to live for a very long time was an increase in individuals not opting for life-saving procedures of any kind. The dissonance that is likely to arise between people who have chosen to become very long lived versus those who see it as antithetical to their religious/moral beliefs seems likely to cause at least some fracturing along these lines; it will be interesting to see what causes people to take sides. Even if the whole process of becoming long-lived unfolds over a long period of time so that individuals don't have to confront the idea of suddenly having a super-old population, I wouldn't be surprised to find a group of "young" people who become outraged by the idea (perhaps with a return to fundamentalism such as we are seeing now among some groups of people here and abroad) and gain traction on the idea as part of some larger dogma attractive to those who have not yet had to face the decision of living just a little bit longer.



Posted by Josh Bacigalupi  on  02/28  at  03:41 PM

Mark,

You have put forward a very intriguing article that gives super-longevity some focused projections into the future. This issue has been on my mind a great deal as I firmly believe in the benefit of enhanced humans via technology. I do, however, believe that indefinite life spans are a dubious advance when seen in comparison to the system of which we are a part. Whereas AI and improved quality of life can help us contribute to the larger system, near-immortality does not. Here's why:

1. We are part of a larger evolution and evolution is of greater necessity than individual happiness.

2. Evolution is predicated on life-death cycles

3. Without death evolution is slowed

Again, I wish to stress that I believe in the continued evolution of humans and our surroundings. The progress of the latter is inevitable, while, due to free will, that of ourselves is not so secured. We are connected to our environment and our environment changes. We are participants of something larger than each individual's contentment. Each individual is an important contributor to the whole, but without a connection to the whole we lose relevancy. Since nature must continue to evolve by resolving the endless variations presented to her on her journey, so must we.

We sever this critical connection when we detach ourselves from the life cycle. The life cycle is intrinsically a cycle of change that weaves its way between stability and instability, absorption and expression. Each of these stages of life mirrors the development and critical contribution that every entity in the universe exhibits within its respective home system. The notion of an individual is a convenient yet scale dependant human construct. The individual is by design a temporary entity manifested out of inherited diversity to temporarily express possible solutions to currently relevant hindrances to evolution. Technology is just such an example of a solution. A deathless society is not.

Without death evolution slows down since the individual, no matter how liberal, has a vested interest in preserving his/her surroundings to suit the patterns that that individual has habituated. The brain itself is dynamic, but over time its pathways cohere upon themselves and become entrenched. This is not the work of a single gene or hormone that can be turned on or off. It is a fundamental property of conscious development. Consciousness is predicated on behaviors being built upon behaviors and these behaviors are contextual to a given time and place. In other words, they are assumptions that are ingrained in a person that have particular temporal and spatial relevancy. In order to maintain evolutionary vitality the individual must absorb that time and space, challenge it, resolve it, manifest it and then leave that manifestation to be resolved by future "individuals" that have future relevancy. It is a dynamic process and to try and hold in stasis those pathways and habits is to hold the world hostage.

I respectfully disagree not just with you, but with a good majority of the transhumanist community of which I proudly consider myself a part. I have been waiting for the right moment to engage this debate and I felt that your very clear, concise and thought provoking article was a good place. I believe that greater quality of life and an enhanced ability to perceive and process our world is a worthy goal. I have as of yet, however, not heard compelling reasons why a deathless society is good for our overall evolution as a species and a planet. Happiness is a comforting notion, but I believe that sacrifice for the greater good is just as important and deserves at least equal consideration. And as far as perfection is concerned, well, that's relative to the time and place such a purported perfection is exerted. And ultimately, no matter how long we live, we can not stop the world around us. Would we really want to?



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