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IEET > Security > Biosecurity > Cyber > Military > SciTech > SpaceThreats > Vision > Technoprogressivism > Fellows > Patrick Lin

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DIY Science, Democracy, and Dogma


Patrick Lin
Patrick Lin
Ethical Technology

Posted: Jul 6, 2010

Ordinary citizens today have access to much greater destructive power than ever before, and this may force the evolution of democracy, which has turned somewhat into dogma.

On July 4, 2010, the US Drug Enforcement Agency (DEA) announced the capture of a new weapon in the drug wars: “The first fully functional, completely submersible submarine for transoceanic voyages that we have ever found,” said a DEA official.

The sophisticated vessel in Ecuador was designed presumably to smuggle drugs into America undetected, but it doesn’t take a naval scientist to see their potential to threaten national security. These submarines also could carry terrorists or a dangerous payload as serious as biochemical weapons, e.g., ricin, or a nuclear “dirty” bomb into New York City’s harbor.

image It’s ironic that this underwater vehicle—capable of breaching the borders of sovereign nations—would be discovered on the birthday of America, the new world’s first democracy. Here’s why: The invention of this underwater Millennium Falcon is a milestone for Do-It-Yourself (DIY) science, nearly 400 years after the invention of the first submarine. But democracy and its attendant values of education, information freedom, and progress are what enable DIY science. In this way, democracy has become a threat to itself.

To explain, let me rewind to about one month ago. I was a speaker at the Humanity+ Summit at Harvard, giving a talk on the link between military technology research and social concerns. The conference theme was “Rise of the Citizen-Scientist.” I’ve always had mixed feelings about this issue: science education is certainly good and desperately needed in the US, and I personally had tinkered with everything from computers to chemistry sets as a kid—but is DIY science wise in this day and age? I don’t know, but let’s return to that point later.

What’s clear, though, is that ordinary citizens are much more powerful than they ever were, and this may force the evolution of democracy, which has turned somewhat into dogma.

America was born from the struggle to be free (slavery aside). We puny individuals were no match against government troops or a well-regulated militia, so we needed Constitutional protection from the tyrannies of government. In fighting for that independence, we turned to new tactics—abandoning the orderly rank-and-file formations and hiding behind trees as guerilla freedom-fighters (or cowardly terrorists, if we had lost).

Today, the individual wields much power, enough to change government itself as well as to open an unprecedented world of hurt on fellow citizens, whether with malicious computer hacking or fertilizer-based bombs or anthrax-laced letters or any number of other ways.

At the same time, we accept that democracy is a risky venture. The Nazi Party could put forth a presidential candidate and, in some possible world, s/he might win. Of course, we really don’t want that to happen. Ever. But it’s a risk that comes with the territory of freedom.

For instance, in the Digital Age, information (and misinformation) moves at the speed of Twitter, and Presidents and candidates are reducible to single soundbites: “Yes, We Can”, “Maverick”, “You Betcha”, “Strategery”, “Lockbox”, “Monica”, “Potatoe”, “Read My Lips: No New Taxes”, and so on, working backwards. The average citizen, with a shrinking attention span, continues to cast the most important votes with incomplete or just plain misinformed knowledge. This risk—of irresponsible power among the masses—is the double edged blade of democracy.

But today, it is still a traitorous offense in many circles to question the limits of freedom and individual rights, even 70 years after the formation of the US House Committee on Un-American Activities, most infamously led by Senator Joe McCarthy in the 1950s. Democracy has become dogma, a mantra of sorts—and God help you if you criticize those values. (You fascist! Terrorist!)

This is what John Stuart Mill and Alexis de Tocqueville called the “tyranny of democracy.” But, granting that democracy is better than all other forms of government today (Plato and Marx would still disagree), is it the best form of government possible? Can we do better? Are we allowed to ask these questions?

Let me put it this way: If individuals had the power to destroy cities and societies—and we may have that soon, if we don’t already—would a democracy even work? Wouldn’t regulating that power make sense? Note that regulation itself is not a contradiction to democratic freedom. We are happy to have traffic laws, for example, to coordinate the chaos on the road. Yet, when it comes to DIY science—returning to the topic at hand and what seems to be a natural extension of democracy—it’s often a four-letter word.

To be clear, as a fan of science, I would never advocate that we abandon it. It has brought profound benefits to humanity, saving countless lives. Citizen-scientists are an indispensable, major part of that honored tradition.

But science also holds a darker side, of which we need to stay mindful. Never mind nuclear weapons, just look at the democratization of cyberspace: Escaping its military roots, the Internet has made previously unimaginable ways of life possible, from a virtual social life through Facebook to how modern business works, e.g., analytics, CRM, financial systems.

Again, private start-ups and citizen-scientists played a critical role in all this. But a relatively small set of malicious hackers are enough to keep us on high alert, even prompting the US government to appoint a “cyber czar” to oversee online national security. This isn’t to say that it would have been better to not have such technology in the first place, but only we must guard against unintended and unforeseen effects.

DIY labs, from biotech to robotics, have the same potential for good and evil. I would never advocate that we abandon research in those areas altogether, but is it wise to put so much power in individual hands? Especially, for instance, when the US Department of Health and Human Services a few years ago essentially published a recipe to resurrect the 1918 influenza virus (which killed 50 million people worldwide) that an angry biochemistry grad student might be able to cook up on his own?

Information wants to be free, and it may take new regulation—or a non-democratic regime—to rein them in, if justified, or at least to control the means of producing such weapons of mass destruction. A bioattack spawned from a DIY lab, as one scenario, could cause such murder and panic that it destabilizes society, imploding democratic controls from within. We should know by now that no organization is too big to fail.

Back to the drug-smuggling submarine that started this rant, we might expect a similar development in robotics, specifically unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs). Perhaps we won’t see the citizen-scientist recreate something like the Predator UAV, raining down Hellfire missiles from the sky. But a drug-smuggling or weaponized UAV is not hard to imagine, as is its law-enforcement counterpart—autonomously doing battle overhead.

I worry that the furious pace of technology and information is on a collision course with democracy and freedom. It is an act of faith to believe that democracy will always work, no matter the scale of the society or the state of science—no one really knows.

image But like other dogmas, even democracy needs to be thoughtfully and productively questioned, as allowed (or even demanded!) by democracy itself. The stakes have never been greater. For instance, the new US space policy is opening doors to outer space for the average person, and more start-up companies will launch their pet projects into orbit. Engaging these kinds of questions will help determine whether we’ll see billboards on the moon or NASCAR-style sponsorship stickers on privately-funded rockets or, more importantly, the militarization of space and the inevitable terrorism that follows it.

Some efforts to regulate DIY science are already underway, but are they enough? Some don’t like them at all, but that shouldn’t be surprising for any given area of regulation. Amateur rocketeers now have to deal with the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives, since certain rocket-motor fuel is now classified as an explosive; some rockets can reach altitudes of over 60 miles, traveling more than 1,000 miles an hour. The Federal Bureau of Investigation is deeply interested in biosecurity and therefore the emerging cottage industry of DIY labs.

Before a fatwa is put on my head for even daring to raise these questions, let me emphasize that I have not argued for anything at this point. I am not against democracy or individual liberty. I am not against science. I am not against business or even NASCAR. I am just asking questions that I think need to be asked, to responsibly move science and society ahead.

Democracy can evolve. Like everything else, it must evolve. But change rarely comes easily, and radical change is never easy.

Sometimes it may feel as if sacred cows are being sacrificed: Is the Second Amendment relevant in the modern world? Under what conditions would a democracy allow torture? Should woefully ignorant politicos be allowed to hold office? Do individuals have a right to do science, or particular kinds of science, in their garages? But this self-reflection, the soul-searching of a nation, is essential for progress and will pay off eventually. As they say, sacred cows make the best hamburgers.


Dr. Patrick Lin is an IEET fellow, as well as an assistant philosophy professor at California Polytechnic State University, San Luis Obispo, and director of its Ethics + Emerging Sciences Group. He was previously an ethics fellow at the US Naval Academy and a post-doctoral associate at Dartmouth College.
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The big question is much simpler, what is valued more, safety & security, or liberty & freedom?

If we, as a society, value safety & security more, then we should be ready for loss of freedom that goes with it. Likewise, if freedom is more important, then we must be ready to deal with the increased risk.

Personally, I don't think life is worth living without freedom & liberty, and I am OK with the increased risk. No one ever promised me that life would be safe.

But I am just one person.



http://valkyrieice.blogspot.com/2010/07/on-government.html

Of all the systems of "Government" we have experimented with over the centuries, Democracy is the sole system in which the majority is not subjugated to the minority of high status individuals. It does have flaws in that under current technological conditions, the majority of humans are insufficiently educated to be able to participate in a democracy as an "Informed Rational" agent. This leads to the common dismissal of democracy as an "Idiocracy". People vote based on irrational "feelings" or allow themselves to be swayed by illogical "arguments" that depend on their lack of education to promote ideologies which are directly opposed to their personal well-being. A" true" Democracy can only exist in a society in which all individuals have unrestricted access to not only information, but to an education sufficient to enable every individual to be able to understand that information, and be aware of logical fallacies and the self serving nature of ideological viewpoints. It also requires absolute transparency of government, because any secrecy allows individuals to subvert the collectives' resources into personal status seeking behavior.

Thus we have not yet reached a point technologically or socially in which these requirements can be met. A totally open government in a world in which multiple "governments" exist would be a disaster due to the competitive nature of status seeking. Only in a world in which no "rival" governments exist can a transparent government be enabled. Without rivals, there is no justification of "secrecy" other than attempts to hide diversion of shared resources into private status. Nor have we the means to ensure that every human has been educated to their fullest potential, as each individual learns differently and no two share the exact same interests and learning styles.

However, even with these flaws, under current conditions, Democracy is STILL the sole means in which the low status majority is LEAST subject to the minority of high status individuals.



Good question, MadRocketScientist.

Civil-rights lawyer Alan Dershowitz -- in arguing for the legalization of some torture...and he's one of the biggest champions of individual rights! -- called it a "triangular conflict" among democratic values: security vs. liberty vs. transparency.

Transparency wouldn't be so much an issue for regulating DIY science, but certainly there's increasing strain on the old tension between liberty and security. If push came to shove, which one would we pick?

Like Dershowitz, I'd say we'd choose security. Liberty without law makes little sense: it's called anarchy, or what Thomas Hobbes described as a state of nature...life would be so "nasty, poor, brutish, and short" that we'd immediately want prop up a gov't to impose order. (Compare it again to driving without traffic laws -- we'd want to have those laws back for everyone's benefit, esp. our own.)

Going to the other extreme, security without liberty would not be living. So some balance needs to be struck. But, esp. in America, the debate never seems to get off the ground since some folk never want to compromise on individual freedoms, as if those were the only values at stake.



Speak of the devil...

President Obama just issued an executive order on biosecurity, which is related to DIY biotech labs: http://gsn.nti.org/gsn/nw_20100706_1939.php



Great article, Lin! For whatever it's worth, I find myself *deeply* confounded by the freedom/security dilemma (or, alternatively, by the triangular conflict discussed by Dershowitz). Clearly, a balance is needed between these two desiderata; but, stated as such, this is a rather facile answer, due to its vagueness. The obvious follow-up is, then: What exactly might this balance consist of? and How exactly could it be achieved? I very much struggle with these questions; maybe, as you suggest, democracy will precipitate its own demise, by "[becoming] a threat to itself."

It's interesting to note that the first existential risks (or, more generally, global catastrophic risks) derived from states; later, devices like "improvised nuclear devices" (INDs) could be manufactured by smaller non-state groups; today, there is of course the possibility that a single individual could synthesize a deadly pathogen and wipe-out a large portion (or all) of humanity. Many anticipated future technologies, as I understand them, also carry the risk that a lone actor -- rather than a larger organization of collaborating individuals -- could bring about massive casualties; nanotechnology comes to mind, although you're obviously far more qualified to discuss the matter than I am.

(Incidentally, it seems to me that the broader cultural, technological, and so on, context should be taken into account when evaluating anarchy as a form of social organization. When humans lived in small groups, anarchy appears to have worked just fine, according to anthropological research from the past 50 years. (Hobbes was apparently wrong, empirically speaking, about the "solitary, poor, nasty, brutish and short" life had by "primitive" peoples.) This is, I take it, why primitivism goes along so well with anarchism. But I have a very hard time imagining anarchism working *at all* in the twenty-first century, given our level of technological development, where a single individual can actualize a global catastrophic risk.

This leads me to (tentatively) affirm the value of anarchism, but only in a qualified way: when we have "small-scale" technologies, anarchism might work; but with today's megatechnics, we need heavy regulation, and I'm inclined, I suppose, to agree with Lin that security should take priority over freedom. There's obviously much more to say about this...)

Also, it looks like the "Civilian Space eXploration Team's GoFast rocket reached an official altitude of 72 miles, making it the first Civilian and Amateur rocket to successfully exceed the 62 mile (100km) international definition of space" (http://www.the-rocketman.com/go-fast.html). Amazing!



As Shevek said in Ursula Le Guin's The Dispossessed, "Freedom is never very safe."

With that noted, however, it's important to contrast the fears expressed in the article with current reality. Large organizations rather than oh-so-terrifying rogue individuals retain responsibility for the vast majority of human suffering. If future technologies undermine the power of such actors, all the better for the species. Pieces such as this one will make it easy for governments to stifle molecular manufacturing in the name of security when and if it ever appears, thus preventing the liberating potential from being realized.



Right, we can't take Hobbes so literally. Besides the fact that his theory of gov't wasn't so much based on actual anthropology, his assumptions about human nature were likely too dim (otherwise, his theory runs into a Prisoners' Dilemma that is most difficult to explain away).

Anyway, monkeys (including Old-World monkeys, our Darwinian predecessors) live perfectly fine in small communities. If humans really were hypercompetitive and distrustful glory-seekers, then family and tribal units wouldn't be possible. Yet clearly they are, and they can work fine without formal government, at least on that scale. (Or on a more charitable interpretation for Hobbes: it could be that we still are hardwired for selfishness, etc., but that tribal leaders or family heads are able to keep the peace through force and might, though ultimately temporarily...which continues the nasty and unstable cycle of violence, something we still wish to escape.)

Either way, when we talk about larger groups, it seems that formal gov't is needed, if protecting life, liberty, and property is important to us (which it is). There's no natural "invisible hand" when it comes to coordinating these social goods beyond a certain scale.

As for anarchy, I should have been more clear: I wasn't referring to the political theory of anarchism (which, as you pointed out, could work on a small scale, e.g., communes), but more its pop description of chaos and immorality.

But...if a small community could run *justly* without gov't, then you'd think that its unspoken laws could be discoverable and codifiable (like the laws of physics). Otherwise, there's no consistency in these unwritten "natural" laws, which may make the entire system unjust. The big advantage to putting laws down on paper are transparency and publicity: you can ensure everyone is on the same page as to what's acceptable behavior, thus no one can claim that punishment, when required, is unfair -- at least with respect to transparency, publicity, and other virtues of formal law. (For other virtues of law, see http://www.scribd.com/doc/19455269/8FULLER-Eight-Ways-to-Fail-to-Make-Law)



Also, I think Valkyrie's remarks point to larger questions that society is unwilling to confront: What is the value of freedom? Is it an intrinsic (i.e., always) good that the lower-status majority should not be subjugated by a higher-status minority? Or is this part of the knee-jerk dogma of democracy?

Never mind Plato's defense of an aristocracy (i.e., rule by the excellent and most virtuous; not so much the undeserving nobility that it connotes today), but reasonable people today still raise these questions. For instance, if someone says that Sarah Palin is a moron and therefore shouldn't be allowed to run for public office, is this simply an elitist opinion about status, or is it a legitimate concern that our rulers ought to be educated on issues, reflective, and open-minded? Would it "subjugate" the masses if we imposed a knowledge-test requirement for political leaders? Or do you really think that literally *any* person off the street should be able to hold office, provided that they're charismatic enough to win elections?

I love my liberty as much as the next person, but freedom without responsibility seems to be a recipe for disaster...



@Summerspeaker: It's easy and popular to demonize large organizations. Yes, they can be inefficient, cold, etc. (Hi, AT&T!) But it seems to be an exaggeration, if not prejudice, to say that "Large organizations rather than oh-so-terrifying rogue individuals retain responsibility for the vast majority of human suffering."

Off the top of my head, those responsible for the most horrific human suffering are individuals: Hitler, Saddam, Pol Polt, Kim Jong-il, Glenn Beck, etc. Most of them controlled the ship of state, steering them into genocidal rocks -- but that's not so much the organization's fault.

Say you didn't like the US military: well, it's still not so much the organization's fault but rather specific leaders who have certain tools at their disposal. With emerging technologies, the strength of armies can be reduced to a tool (or DIY lab) wielded by a single person. And individuals are often harder to control than large organizations.



@ Patrick Lin

A knowledge test should certainly be administered to any elected official. I would also favor the eventual administration of one to all voters as well, but that would have to wait until we can guarantee that universal education is freely available to all voters.

@Summer, you are falling prey to a common logical error, assigning to a collective behavior which is exhibited by individuals.

The collective is a survival instinct, it exists to enable sharing of resources, allocation of those shared resources within the collective, and provision for all members in a collective the five basic NEEDS. It is entirely neutral, and exists to promote co-operation which results in species beneficial behavior.

Every collective, be it a small one, or a large, exists for this sole purpose. Formalized "Government" is simply a very large scale collective.

Every species which forms social groups follow this same basic form. In and of itself, collectives are extremely beneficial to survival, with very few drawbacks.

However, survival alone is not the only drive which promotes the creation of groups. Reproductive instincts also force us to create groups, for entirely different reasons. The reproductive drive is competitive. It seeks to divide the collective into high status and low status groups, with high status determined by numerous factors. It is intended to ensure preferential reproduction of high status individuals, promoting the reproduction of the "best" genes.

Again, by itself, this is actually a very beneficial thing, as it promotes not only continuation of "good genes" it also lies behind our drives to create new tools, invent new technologies, and in general increase our standards of living.

The problem lies in the fact that we as a species have learned how to "Cheat the system." by using status to divert shared resources from the collective into individual status building.

Almost every single "government atrocity" is driven by an individual, or small collection of individuals, using their "status" to enact actions which either enhance or protect their "status"

The same holds true for big business. Individuals promote the "status" of the collective "corporation" because doing so DIRECTLY BENEFITS THEM in ways that either enhance or protect their "status"

Government corruption? Status seeking by "subservience" to those groups which can grant additional status

Every level of the collective has the same vulnerability to status seeking behaviors that divert collective efforts into personal status enhancement.

The sole way to prevent such subversion is via universal transparency. If diversion could not occur, then the collective has very few drawbacks and is primarily beneficial, and to ensure fair distribution of shared resources, a democracy is the most efficient means to ensure equality.

Directing our efforts to fighting the true root causes of misery and suffering is the ONLY way to bring them to an end. Everything else is wasted effort.



Off the top of my head, those responsible for the most horrific human suffering are individuals: Hitler, Saddam, Pol Polt, Kim Jong-il, Glenn Beck, etc. Most of them controlled the ship of state, steering them into genocidal rocks -- but that's not so much the organization's fault.

I don't know if I agree with that framing but let's go with it for the sake of argument. It's still the collective power of the organization that causes the harm. If Hitler alone had tried to wipe out the Jews with DIY science I doubt he would have gotten too far. The rare people who attempts this sort of thing in that fashion kill perhaps ten or twenty at the most. As such, the present evidence suggests it's more appropriate to fear states and corporations than empowered individuals.



I would be sympathetic to a knowledge-test for public officials, but not sure yet about for voters, even if there is free universal education. (Wait, there is at the K-12 level...though quality of education varies wildly.)

Even with the best and free universal education, many people might have good reasons to turn away from it -- but does that they mean they forfeit their right to vote? Some may need to drop out for economic reasons, e.g., to get a job to help the family. Others are victims of circumstance, e.g., raised in gang-land.

So it seems that these factors need to be fixed too, to ensure fairness. (What about those who drop out through their own fault, e.g., laziness or drinking/drugs...tough luck, you can't vote? Maybe. Tough luck for anyone who drops out, regardless of reason? Seems severe.)

Or if you want to say that the voters' test will be about the candidates and current issues/events which might not require a formal education, then why wait for free universal education before implementing this req't? Some very intelligent people never finished college (e.g., Bill Gates) or even high school (e.g., Quentin Tarantino). And many college grads I wouldn't trust with a vote.

So not sure I'd hang my hat entirely on the education req't, esp. as standards still vary considerably...need to think more about this...



My reasoning is that education as it currently exists cannot quantitatively be said to teach THINKING SKILLS, merely rote memorization and blind obedience to authority. This is likely to change in the neat future as more and more education becomes self directed under the guidance of narrow AI tutoring programs.

The test before voting would simply be to ensure that the person had done their homework on the issue being voted on. a basic pop quiz that more or less ensures that you are making a conscious decision in your vote, and not simply checking off boxes in a column.

There's considerably more to my view than I can easily condense into a few words, because I write about technology, and how it not only affects our social environment, but how our social environment also drives technology.

As I see trends developing, the current trends in government corruption have run headlong into the participatory panopticon, the ability of the public to record and retain evidence of public officials actions and behavior. As Jon Stewart shows frequently, we now have the ability to record politicians and compare their words over the course of time, which enables us to not only reveal the self serving "status building" they do by catering to special interests, but to use that evidence freely as a "external memory"

As we develop VR and AR in the next few years, cameras are going to become universal. What now can be done to politicians will become a feature of daily life. We will record our lives in enormous detail to enable us to merge virtual and real in a digital wonderland, and those recordings will become evidence when needed.

This kind of "perfect memory" will also enable us to vastly improve the education level of everyone. With efficient "memory agents" we will have every detail of every bit of knowledge we have ever encountered available to each of us instantly, with the ability to research new knowledge nearly as fast via the internet.

And like the Truth Machine in James Halprin's book this "personal black box" will enable us to vastly simplify our transactions by removing the ability to deceive from being a factor in human interactions. No one can lie when their personal record, or that of anyone else who is present, can record the exact factual record of any event.

Thus the PRIMARY requirement for any democracy is ACCOUNTABILITY. Every member of a democracy MUST be ACCOUNTABLE to every other member of that democracy. Every member of the democracy needs to be accountable to the government, and most importantly that government HAS TO BE COMPLETELY ACCOUNTABLE TO THE INDIVIDUAL.

Without that accountability, Status seeking behavior will be the dominant activity of nearly every political figure.



Don't forget this point:

No one will be able to suppress DIY science effectively, they will only drive it underground.

Perhaps we should think about permanently eliminating the conditions that lead to someone wanting to do massive harm to a civilization in the first place.

I'm an Egalitarian Autonomist (i.e. Anarchist, but I choose not to use the word Anarchy anymore, as it's a loaded word these days).
I hear the argument that Anarchy only works on a small scale a lot. When has it ever been attempted on a large scale? We've had civilization for thousands of years. There's no experimental evidence to say Anarchy can't work on a large scale. Of course, by definition, Anarchy doesn't really become large scale to begin with.
Real Anarchy (or Autonomous Egalitarianism, as I like to call it, abbr. AE) works when people make a commitment to transmitting Principles instead of Laws. The two are incompatible, not because it's impossible to make just Laws, but due to the very nature of Law in that it promotes dependence on an external factor. No one needs to understand the underlying Principles when you have a Law to do it for you, and therefore the longer people live with Laws, the less they internalize the Principles. In order to really cement Principles, you have to avoid Laws, no matter how risky it is at first (it gets less risky with each generation).
For example, an experiment in Israel recently had a group of daycare centers impose a late fee of 10 shekels to parents that didn't pick up their kids on time. For control, they had another group of daycares that didn't impose a fee (all of them had some minor issues with late parents before the experiment).
Those daycares that imposed the late fee saw an INCREASE in late parents, basically because they parents sub-consciously felt that the late fee was just a sur-charge they could choose to pay when they wanted to be late. The daycares that didn't charge the late fee relied on the parents sense of social justice (i.e. guilt) to keep lateness down. As soon as RULES (i.e. Laws) were introduced, lateness increased.
This is like speeding and parking tickets. People just figure in the cost of their annual speeding tickets into their budget. They don't actually slow down.
Traffic signs too (recent experiements, especially in Europe, prove this).
When you get rid of traffic signs, when you replace intersections with round-abouts, accidents DECREASE (and tend not to be as deadly when they do happen).
Laws (i.e. Rules, i.e. Authority) actually stimulate people's competitive nature (we've all heard the old addage 'rules are meant to be broken'....so if their were no rules....what then???)

Next

Super-abundance, and the elimination of poverty. It's within our technological capability today.

An egalitarianism can only arise with total communication and transparecny. This is why technology like the internet, cell phones, and Twitter do more to bring us closer to Egalitarianism than anything else.

All Authority (this means all government and all religion) bring about the kind of Anarchy/Chaos we fear.
You cannot protect freedom, it's a dichotomy.



I think this is the Israeli study you're referring to: here

It only concludes that sometimes a nominal fine is merely a price that actors take into account -- the cost of justification to your conscience -- and therefore it doesn't have the deterrent effect that a fine qua punishment is supposed to have. The study's authors admit that "it is true that a 'large enough" fee would eventually reduce the behavior" (p. 15).

It's too big a leap to extrapolate from this study to the claim that law in general is ineffective. Legal punishment can take on many other forms and intensity. Anyway, even if nominal fines are sometimes considered to be prices or "the cost of doing business", the deterrent theory of punishment isn't seriously undermined, because prices themselves are known to have a deterrent effect on consumer behavior: the higher the price, the lower the demand, cet. par. -- this is the bedrock of economics, which I assume you don't want to question.

Anyway, what the study doesn't do is to see how parents respond if principles were laid down in lieu of fines. That's what you need to prove your point. Unfortunately, the researchers don't do that. (I'm not even sure what that would look like...gentle reminders that you should uphold your contractual obligations, without an "or else"?)

You describe an interesting theory (of AE). But your distinction between "principles" and "laws" seems thin. Even our laws are thought to be based on principles, e.g., "Don't hurt others without cause" -- it can't be turtles all the way down. And why couldn't these principles (never mind how to select these principles: would they look like the Ten Commandments?...and how's that working out?) be written down and published? Don't call them laws, if you like, but for all practical purposes, that's what they'd be.

Or maybe you mean that these principles don't carry a penalty of punishment. However, punishment is not exclusive to laws; even the Ten Commandments carry (the ultimate) punishment. It *could* work with a small enough group, e.g., a religious cult. But then that might smack of, well, a religious cult...brainwashing, indoctrination, or as some might call it "cementing principles."

I don't mean to sound cynical about the idea -- highly skeptical, yes, but hopeful that it could work. But that AE has never been attempted on a large scale is not a reason to do it or to think it'd work. Perhaps if you could point to a "proof of concept", i.e., demonstrate that it works on a small but meaningful scale, then I'd be less skeptical.

Thanks, everyone, for your comments...very interesting!



Also, to iPan's comment: No one will be able to suppress DIY science effectively, they will only drive it underground.

Agreed. But this would still reduce the risk of malicious DIY science, and maybe that's worth the extra safety blanket of regulations and laws.

Note that murder is illegal and has never been suppressed effectively. It has been driven underground, where only criminals and the insane engage in it. But is that a reason to decriminalize or "unregulate" it? Probably not. I'd guess that, without laws against unlawful killings, there'd be a lot more of it.

Of course, if you could create a society (from scratch or a social experiment that takes generations to take hold, kinda like Plato's "Noble Lie") that is governed by AE, then maybe enough folk will innately not want to kill others. But I see this as primarily an implementation problem...looks good on paper, but too many practical challenges...



@iPan and Patrick

The basis of every law made is to ensure accountability. The law hasn't "driven murder undergroud" it has instead created a penalty which ensures that a murderer is held accountable for their action in some manner.

In the same way, regulation also exists to ensure accountability. Good regulation policy encourages positive development, because it limits detrimental behavior, i.e. actions which endanger or harm the collective good or individual health, while rewarding the beneficial actions, while poor regulation policy hinders development by imposing barriers that actually encourage "subverting the system"

Accountability creates beneficial behavior. A lack of accountability, or a series of loopholes that enable escaping accountability encourages detrimental behavior.

iPan, you want a world with very few laws? Support the development of accountability.



@Summerspeaker: Are you talking about a lone-wolf Hitler using DIY to muder Jews with WWII-era science or science today?

If the former, of course Hitler couldn't do anything much...he might have taken out 10-50 people as a suicidal bomber if he had the cojones. But that's the point: with DIY technology today or in the near term, Hitler wouldn't even need an army to take out cities.

Armies, though, are very handy. That's why many experts are calling this the Rise of the Military Contractor. There is a story (which I'm not sure I'm authorized to tell, so I'll leave the details vauge), of a bigshot Hollywood actress looking to hire a defense contractor -- an army of mercenaries -- to help "resolve" some African conflict. The job ultimately didn't happen, but this single person, with a lot of money but no organization of her own, was effectively about to start a proxy war. Which would not only change the course of history for that country, but also result in heavy casualties.

This is to say that we don't need to point to fantasical emerging technologies to show that a lone person could unleash hell. Today, anyone with enough money can, say, buy an African army, take over some diamond mines or just overthrow a tyrannical gov't. Heck, mercenaries (e.g., Hessians) played a critical role in the American Revolution, so this isn't anything new. But that a lone person could wipe out a city with DIY technologies -- what it used to take armies to do -- is an unprecedented and unnerving reality we need to confront.



@Valkyrie: Not sure who told you that, but it's untrue that "the basis of every law made is to ensure accountability" -- and this seems to be your critical premise.

For instance, some laws confer power, e.g., to get married, to enter into contracts. But maybe you mean that all laws are backed by some punishment, but again power-conferring laws don't come with that baggage. But, yes, generally, laws go hand in hand with punishments or fines, and these sanctions are related to accountability.

But, to iPan's point, you might not need law to make people accountable or act responsibly. So just because laws ensure accountability, that doesn't mean that *only* laws can achieve this. A society without laws *could* work...I don't know, but it doesn't seem impossible in theory...



Step away from a conversation for half a day...

I think the triangle is over-thinking the issue. Transparency is an enabler, not a state. Liberty is enhanced/enabled by transparency, security (seemingly; Bruce Scheiner would take exception to this) by a lack thereof.

---

"Would it "subjugate" the masses if we imposed a knowledge-test requirement for political leaders? Or do you really think that literally *any* person off the street should be able to hold office, provided that they're charismatic enough to win elections?"

Honestly, I don't think a test is a bad idea, although knowledge alone is hardly an adequate indicator of a successful leader. Also, what topics would be tested? Science, history, political theory, economic theory, religion, etc? Still, I don't think such a test is, on it's face, unconstitutional.

Alternatively, we could require our leaders to demonstrate their commitment to public service. I remember reading a bit of fiction where in order to gain access to the levers of power, you had to build up a significant reserve of wealth, and then divest all of it to the state (and relinquish your right to accumulate more) in order to become a leader.

A voter test, on the other hand, could be seen as a poll tax, which is not permitted. As unfortunate as it may be, you can not require a voter test. What you can do is redefine citizenship such that a person is not born a citizen, but must meet some requirement in order to become a full citizen with voting rights. Think military service, college education, Journeyman status in a trade union, home ownership, 5 consecutive years of gainful employment, etc.

"But that a lone person could wipe out a city with DIY technologies -- what it used to take armies to do -- is an unprecedented and unnerving reality we need to confront. "

So we've finally come to the James Bond plot? The one thing about the James Bond villain is the flawed idea that any such action could take place undiscovered until it was too late.

Think of it this way. A single actor could maybe whip up a nasty chemical or bio-weapon in secret, but without some means of industrial scale production, could they produce enough to really do societal damage (assuming people actually start remembering that this is the "home of the brave" and stop allowing bit actors to terrorize them so completely)? If so, why hasn't anyone done so yet? How effectively can they keep it secret? Do we need to limit the DIY science, or just keep an eye on the sale/theft of key equipment and materials?

If they do have access to large scale production methods, the likelihood of it staying secret drops dramatically, since other humans will be involved (two people can always keep a secret, if one of them is dead). Remember, 9/11 happened not because the bad guys were so good, but because the good guys had crappy communication skills.

Information has, and will continue to, win & lose more battles & wars then technology ever will. Worry less about regulating the science, and more about making sure that lawful actors have safe & effective means to experiment, and keep an eye on the information concerning material & equipment. You can't make a nuke without fissile material, and I'm betting you can't make bio-weapons without some kind of incubator. If I have to undergo an extensive background check to get a concealed carry permit, why can't we do the same for key items of science?

Valkyrie Ice - Re: source of corruption - spot on!

Re: The purpose of law is accountability is how it should work in theory, in fact, laws & regulations are now crafted to protect or harm specific groups & institutions, instead of being merely the rules by which we all play nice (re: Three Felonies a Day), and many of them have become as corrupt as the men who created them.



A single actor could maybe whip up a nasty chemical or bio-weapon in secret, but without some means of industrial scale production, could they produce enough to really do societal damage...

A couple scenarios for your consideration: Ricin and other biotoxins can be made in a DIY lab. On a remote-controlled hobby aircraft, someone could release the payload over a population area, which maximizes its proliferation. Also, when we're talking about biotech and genetically-modified bacteria, there's the possibility of self-replication (nature's own nanobots) to achieve the scale of production that previously required industrial equipment and processes.

Biotech aside, let's look at robotics: this isn't a terribly difficult field to access...just study at any research university. A foreign student, let's say, might take that knowledge back to her country and create a military UAV program without too much trouble. In fact, today, we're not close to being the only one that have them, though we tend to grab all the headlines; our Predator UAVs are very tough to defeat and can wreak all kinds of havoc. Over 40 nations now with military UAVs. One of them, for instance, is Iran.

I haven't done much scenario work, but I'm sure others here can come up with many more examples...



An enjoyable article and comments. I don't think there is much danger of a fatwa yet because you played it rather "too" safe. We all aspire to freedom and democracy, and you are correct that by its nature even democracy must be open to its own criticisms. Yet all of this we already know. Nor are these "twelve monkeys" styled scenarios and speculations very useful. Freedom has never been "free" has it? There has and always will be a price to be paid for freedom?

One of the greatest tools the governments of the new cyber age have against these random threats by manic individuals is social networking sites like Facebook. Yes indeedy, if you are a subscriber, then no doubt not only your face, but your family, friends, children and all of their personal information is readily to hand for any government agency to see and use and interrogate. And not only this, this information will be readily available to "all" parties and sold off to businesses and bodies in the near future : You just try to stop it? Try to remove your personal information now, or remove that dodgy party pic. Bet Ya can't?

The Internet should remain "free" to use, and to explore without restrictions. And without this subtle use of Facebook and other social networking sites, our governments would most likely be imposing even greater restrictions on the Internet and its use?

Democracy should and must survive, yet obviously we do need to contemplate and question just how liberal we presume to be, both now and in the future. Anyone that promotes democracy and freedom is a libertarian at heart, yet ask yourself honestly, "how far do your liberal views go?"


@ Valkyrie Ice : You have some great points regarding "accountability". You should post them here as an article for all to read if you can. Yet you somewhat presume this accountability of individuals to each other and to the collective, and this is what really needs to be explored. Without laws what binds individuals to accountability? It is not merely openness or the lack of opportunity for fraud or concealment. There will always be skilled individuals that find loop holes and ways around full and open accountability and transparency no matter what technologies are in place?

It is "social contract" that should bind accountability through the co-operation of citizens, and this relies somewhat on an ethical code of practice and the understanding by individuals of their personal responsibilities towards this social contract? I would propose a strengthening of understanding of "social contract" and the awareness of personal responsibility towards the state and to each other. Yet without laws how could this be promoted or even enforced?

AE may work for small groups, yet the hazards and dangers for these tribal styled ideals lies in the competition between groups? Groups would have to protect themselves and their own laws and customs and property against other groups. And no doubt there will be skilled experts and groups ready to freeload and even take by force what they need or want. Micro nation states and healthy distrust does not sound very appealing? Where individuals choose not to participate and take protection within groups, the scenarios for fear and the need for personal protection would be even more paramount?

Placing Plato's ideals of democracy and equality aside, there will always be paupers that "need" to steal, and even murderers that enjoy murder, despite individuals knowing that these acts are immoral or wrong. So even if we are all educated and knowledgeable and wise to this equal level playing field, there are still many other factors that come into play, (biological, brain chemicals and neuroses, impoverished situations and circumstance), that will not prevent individuals and even groups from "taking liberties" from others?

All that said, I'm so glad all parties here seem to be pointing in the same direction, i.e. towards the understanding of personal responsibility and moreover towards the understanding of the root causes of sufferings, cravings, grasping, ego etc. Yet one more step closer to a Buddhist philosophy of self understanding and extrapolated towards the needs and understanding for a harmonious and peaceful collective, and hopefully all this without the need for excessive laws and justice?

So to surmise I believe that what is required is once again a re-evaluation of the ideals and political philosophy that we already have in place. This new age merely needs "tweaking" to establish the awareness and understanding of "social contract" and personal responsibility. And yet still enforce this where required.



A single actor could maybe whip up a nasty chemical or bio-weapon in secret, but without some means of industrial scale production, could they produce enough to really do societal damage...

A couple scenarios for your consideration: Ricin and other biotoxins can be made in a DIY lab in small quantities, but small quantities are enough to kill a lot of people. On a remote-controlled hobby aircraft, someone could release the payload over a population area, which maximizes its proliferation. Also, when we're talking about biotech and genetically-modified bacteria, there's the possibility of self-replication (nature's own nanobots) to achieve the scale of production that previously required industrial equipment and processes.

Biotech aside, let's look at robotics: this isn't a terribly difficult field to access -- just study at any research university. A foreign student, let's say, might take that knowledge back to her country and create a military UAV program without too much trouble. In fact, the US is not close to being the only one with them, though we tend to grab all the headlines; our Predator UAVs are very tough to defeat and can wreak all kinds of havoc. Today, over 40 nations now have military UAVs. One of them, for instance, is Iran.

I haven't done much scenario work, but I'm sure others here can come up with many more examples. Anyway, I don't think we disagree on the key issue here, which is that some security checks or regulation at some level may be sensible...



@ Patrick

I said the BASIS for law is to ensure accountability. Even those which confer power are intended to lay out precise delineations of accountability and consequence for failure to be accountable.

As MadRocketScientist points out, corruption has affected our laws as throughly as it has our government. They have misused laws to REMOVE accountability.

@CygnusX1

I never said we would have a society WITHOUT laws, but an enormous number of laws that exist do so merely to "define" what accountability is. Contract law, tax law, regulatory law, etc.

What a universal panopticon will do is eliminate the NEED for so many laws. For example two people decide to trade goods or services. Right now, such a trade would require a formally written contract, defining precisely what is being traded, precisely what it is being traded for, and reams of other precisely defining terms that go up enormously in complexity depending on precisely what is being traded.

But if both parties have personal recorders, and they are in a public place which is also recording (like a store) the transaction can be a simple handshake. If any dispute arises, the judge can consult both their records and the locations, and see PRECISELY what occurred, as opposed to having to listen to each side attempt to favor their side, and figure out who's lying.

Laws will always be needed, but guaranteed accountability will enable us to simplify human interactions and help us identify those who constantly seek loopholes to avoid accountability, and over time, eliminate those loopholes.

Consider it debugging the human social program.



Patrick:

Aside: Can I use html tags here?

"Ricin and other biotoxins can be made in a DIY lab in small quantities, but small quantities are enough to kill a lot of people. On a remote-controlled hobby aircraft, someone could release the payload over a population area, which maximizes its proliferation. "

And again, I ask, if it's this easy, why hasn't it been done yet? Look at the Sarin gas attack in Japan. Sarin is a lot more toxic that ricin, and it only managed to kill 13 people, in an enclosed space. Ricin has an LD50 of 40 mg-min/cu. meter. You'd better have a really big UAV & a lot of ricin to put out a concentration sufficient to kill people (and fly it at a very low altitude on a calm day, yeah, that won't be noticed).

Now, that is not to say that such an attack won't terrorize, but it's unlikely that it would kill or maim large populations.

And if I'm remembering it right, part of the problem with bio-weapons is that most can't survive in open air for very long (I'm an aerospace engineer & IT guy, not a biologist, so feel free to correct me if you know better). Even if an attack was carried out, with how quickly we can disseminate information these days, once it was realized an attack was underway, it could be stopped (they key here is to shut down travel and get people into their homes to avoid providing a vector). Again, people may die, but it's unlikely that it will do the kind of mass damage you seem to be concerned with.

One of my favorite doomsday scenarios is the idea that a single person with a Barret 50-cal sniper rifle can bring down an airliner. While it's not impossible to do this, the likelihood of it succeeding is so remote as to be laughable (remember, in WW2, it required hundreds of 50-cal bullet impacts to down a single fighter plane, unless you hit the pilot).

I guess my point here is this, we can dream up doomsday scenarios all day long; however, our imagined scenarios are an insufficient reason to restrict liberty, and history has demonstrated that whenever societies have attempted to regulate away a doomsday threat, they've found that those who would wish to do harm are just as creative and find ways around the regulations.
----
I know of no safe depository of the ultimate powers of
the society but the people themselves, and if we think them not
enlightened enough to exercise their control with a wholesome
discretion, the remedy is not to take it from them, but to inform their
discretion.
...
Thomas Jefferson



@MadRocketScientist: Yes, you can use HTML tags here.



A point on terminology, which I think matters: We're not really talking about doomsday scenarios here -- many of which are speculative if not far-fetched -- but catastrophic scenarios.

As to your question "why hasn't it been done yet?", I suppose we're still talking about future scenarios, things that are on the cusp of being practically possible (as opposed to merely logically possible); so it shouldn't be a surprise that they haven't occurred yet. Even those scenarios that are plausible today, perhaps we just got lucky that they haven't occurred yet, e.g., our security intelligence is working (when they do their job, you never hear about it), etc.

Also, do we really want to wait until they do occur before we install safeguards? We plan for many scenarios that haven't yet happened, e.g., from the invidividual saving up for her retirement, or DHS defending our bridges or reservoirs from a terrorist attack, or cyberwarfare.

These states of affairs haven't played out yet, but does that mean it's inappropriate to prepare for them? I'd guess that some of your projects are in anticipation of some future capability or scenario that we don't have yet. (Do you think MAD -- mutually-assured destruction -- was just a fiction of anti-nuke activists?)

Your point, though, is well taken. I suppose many of these scenarios can be tested in a lab, not just theoretically -- so the question can be resolved empircally. But how do we do that? We could push for a DIY lab to produce large quantities of anthrax so that we can say "I told you so!" and point to it as evidence that our fears are justified. But that strikes me as a foolish at best and dangerous at worst.

You start to raise the right question at the end: What counts as sufficient reason to restrict our liberty? This is a pragmatic question as well as a philosophical one. I don't have a quick answer for that, except that I think it's possible that the needle should move now a bit more in the direction of having more security. I don't think you can deny that the world today is much less secure that when our Constitution was written, at least in terms of catastrophic risks of scale.

The quote from TJ, however -- and having grown up in Virginia, I'm proud to say that he's my favorite US president -- is exactly the dogma I'm talking about, which distracts from this entire debate. The democracy imagined by our founding fathers is a much smaller scale, with different power-relationships between individual and state. So it's possible, or at least the possibility needs to be considered, that some of our Constitutional principles need to be revisited.

Political thinker JS Mill, for instance, recognized, that there are distinct evolutionary stages of a democracy, i.e., it's not a static state that can neither improve or become worse. But even he could not foresee what the world would look like in 2010, and I think there's a perfect storm of forces now (incl. advanced, accessible science) that is forcing democracy to evolve yet again. I can't prove it today, and I hope I'm wrong, but good reasons seem to exist for thinking so.



The reason for this change of policy by our current UK coalition government, is mainly because the police have been proven to be abusing their powers with reference to the below. It took the intervention of the European courts, which the police and the former Labour government, (socialist), duly ignored. Thus the resultant coalition government ruling as per below.

The policies of the current Conservative/Liberal coalition UK government are not in favour of any depreciation of civil rights or liberties. Theresa May's words here serve as a reminder to us ALL both sides of the Atlantic, regarding the possible abuses of rights that follow "knee jerk" changes to constitutional rights.

Rules on stop and search changed

"Stricter tests for stop and search powers have been announced by the home secretary after being ruled unlawful by the European Court of Human Rights."

"In a Commons statement, Home Secretary Theresa May said: "The first duty of government is to protect the public but that duty must never be used as a reason to ride roughshod over our civil liberties."

"She said the European Court's judgement had found the use of Section 44 amounted to "the violation of the right to a private life".

"Lord Carlile, the government's independent reviewer of anti-terror legislation, said Section 44 had been ineffective in combating terrorism, had caused community tensions and was used "arbitrarily and for incorrect purposes".

>> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/10555430.stm


Anti-terror stop and search powers to be scrapped

"The police's use of controversial counter terrorism stop and search powers against individuals is to be scrapped immediately, the home secretary announced today.

Under section 44 of the Terrorism Act 2000, officers can stop and search anyone in a designated area without having to show reasonable suspicion. Interim operational guidelines to be issued to the police say that in future section 44 powers will be used only to search vehicles, and officers will have to have grounds for suspecting they are being used in connection with terrorism."

"The home secretary's decision to scrap their use against individuals follows a ruling by the European court of human rights in January that the powers were unlawful because they were too broadly drawn and lacked sufficient safeguards to protect civil liberties."

>> http://www.guardian.co.uk/law/2010/jul/08/anti-terror-stop-and-search-scrapped



Patrick

I understand your point, and I hope you'll agree that increasing security at the cost of liberty should always be the last option taken. Far too often, especially lately, that is the first option used (OMG! That's horrible! We have to do something! There ought to be a law! If it even saves only one life, it'll be worth it! Think of the children!, etc ad nauseum).

If the main concern is that some do-it-yourself-er might accidentally unleash a catastrophe, then I think we should focus on informing discretion (and providing safe places to do such science), until that proves to be inadequate. If we just restrict access to DIY science, it'll just be driven underground, where it'll be even harder to monitor.

If the concern is that bad actors will use DIY science to attack our society, then there is little point in restricting liberties, because bad actors will just bypass such restrictions (if you are planning on killing a whole city with Ebola, you aren't gonna be stymied by a law against possessing a bacterial incubator). Think drug gangs & guns, they can't buy them legally, so they just steal them, or smuggle them in from countries with laxer laws (or law enforcement). If there is a demand, a supply will be found.

Also, the security theater we endure right now (not just under the tender mercies of the TSA, but at all levels of society) is a pointless waste of resources. Security does not have to be invasive & obtrusive, but it does have to be intelligent. Liberties do not necessarily have to be curtailed, but it does make for good theater so the public thinks the authorities are taking it seriously.

So yes, our democracy does have to evolve, but not necessarily toward the police state. It can alternatively evolve through enhanced education, intelligence, communication, and transparency.



I think I generally agree that "increasing security at the cost of liberty should always be the last option taken."

But again, to ensure that we're not following rote dogma, we should consider scenarios in which curtailing liberty in the name of security might be justified as the first option. Are there any?

What if a person known to have a ticking-time bomb were to run into a crowded store. Wouldn't we be justified in detaining all those shoppers, even without reasonable cause, to find the bomber? The reason would be that the stakes are so high (bomb) and time to deliberate or test out other options does not exist (tick tock)?

This is the kind of scenario that Dershowitz contemplates, and I worry -- but could be mistaken -- that DIY science presents a similar urgency and risk. Granted, the ticking-time bomb is a highly unusual case, but it's an important thought-experiment to test the alleged principle you stated and that I reiterated above. Claims about "always" or "never" need to be examined critically, I've found.

Finally, as I pointed out earlier in this thread, the fact that no regulation or law is perfect (e.g., against murder) isn't by itself a reason to turn away from such instruments, as blunt as they might be. Otherwise, you could argue that there's "little point" in having any laws, because none of them fully does it job. (I take a conclusion of anarchy to be a reductio ad absurdum argument against the premises.)

If there were a less invasive, less privacy- and liberty-eroding solution, that would be great. I'd love to see us try out enhanced education, intelligence, communication, and transparency, provided that we have the time to let these work (which could take a generation or more, esp. education?).

But like imperfect laws, I haven't seen a case where any of these activities always work to stop the behavior undesired. The Unabomber was highly educated, intelligent, etc., yet all these advantages didn't stop him from killing people. This isn't to say we shouldn't try education, etc., but only that we can't rule out laws and regulation if they work more quickly (albeit just as imperfectly) and time is a factor.

P.S. I appreciate your thoughtful positions, which is essential for really getting a dialogue started.



Actually, with the development of VR over the next decade, two things are likely to occur rapidly.

Societal transparency due to the universality of cameras (both in individual hands for VR devices, in public areas for combined VR and surveillance, in vehicles for "black boxes" as well as possible autopilots, and numerous other applications) will likely become the basis for a massive change in our definitions of "privacy" as a necessary component of "liberty" outside of personal living quarters. This will include the development of sensors that can detect and track any dangerous device.

And the creation of "virtual assistants" which will act as personal tutors, research agents, assistants, secretaries, etc. This will become a standard part of the user interface for VR, and will effectively increase the education levels of their users quickly.



This is wrong on so many levels, I couldn't believe an American and a scientist would argue for limiting the freedom of research.
1. It is true that the power of individual to hurt others are increasing, but this is measured against unprotected targets. With the development of science and technology, the protection given to individuals is also increasing. In the case of DIY science, it would only be a threat to public security if the development of protective technology lags behind.
2. Thus, instead of limiting freedom, what the government should do is to encourage the development of technologies that can give its citizens protection against possible attacks from mad DIY scientist. Once developed, these technologies can also be used to further citizens' quality of life (i.e. super antibiotics or antiviral can be used to deter bio attacks, they can also be used to cure AIDS).
3. By limiting DIY research, you are giving the government an easy way out: Instead of supporting research, it will just use state power to lock down everyone. This would give you some security, but it is a lose-lose deal, since the citizens would lost benefits coming from increased research activity (not just from DIY scientists, but also from their state or corporate sponsored competitors), the government would also lose the technology race to states that values freedom of research.
4. From a practical point of view, none of today's DIY science post a credible threat to public security with the sole exception of biotech. The sub is just a delivery vehicle, the cyber threat is mostly FUD created by government and recording industry to give a reason to lock down the Internet.
5. It is true there is some danger from a bioattack from a DIY lab, but limiting the freedom of research would not prevent this, given the way virus are transmitted. Sure you can prevent your citizen from cooking up the 1918 influenza virus by becoming a police state, but what is to prevent some terrorists from cooking up the virus abroad? And they don't need a fancy sub to get the virus into your country, just need some volunteers who's not afraid of dying and a plane ticket.



This is wrong on so many levels, I couldn't believe an American and a scientist would argue for limiting the freedom of research.

This is what I mean about dogma and sacred cows. Are we not allowed to talk about these possibilities? Again, I'm not arguing for anything at this point, except for an intellectually honest engagement of the issues.

You seem to be suggesting an arms race between bioweapons and biodefenses. Yes, this is a possible solution, but probably not ideal and certainly not an obviously correct one. This is why we need to productively talk about these things.



What if a person known to have a ticking-time bomb were to run into a crowded store. Wouldn't we be justified in detaining all those shoppers, even without reasonable cause, to find the bomber? The reason would be that the stakes are so high (bomb) and time to deliberate or test out other options does not exist (tick tock)?

That is a great example of an incidental suspension of liberty for the explicit purpose of dealing with a specific situation, much in the same way a search warrant allows police to suspend your 4th amendment rights for a specific reason. Those are permitted, and have been since the start of this country.

The invasive searches the TSA randomly puts people through, however, are not. There is no specific threat, there is barely a generalized threat, so why do I get strip searched every time I fly (hint: I have metal in my arms, so I set of the metal detectors, and TSA agents apparently think I am the terminator and have pop-up weapons)?

Overall, regulation is fine, as long as it doesn't unnecessarily interfere with the lawful conducting of science (or any other activity). Like I've said before, tracking the purchasing of key equipment, or requiring permits or background checks for key materials, is not necessarily bad (I'm pretty libertarian, but not insanely so). Creating expensive regulatory requirements ("$500 for a permit? Seriously?"), harassing lawful users ("Sir, you have a permit for yellow cake Uranium, we need to check your storage facilities. I know this is the third time this month, but you can't be too safe now."), or using that information to round up everyone who has it and confiscate all research materials, just because there might be a threat, is bad.

As with everything, the balance must be striven for.



The first comment of this blog rightly concerns freedom; however my primary doubt of libertarianism is: doesn't addiction for power-- in males at least-- virtually dwarf what freedom is? Collateral question is, how does one go about defining 'destructive'?



MadRocketScientist wrote: "Liberties do not necessarily have to be curtailed". More & more it appears that that which one cannot do is far more important than liberty-- really want to reject that conclusion, yet cannot. To attempt to get a handle on it (I can do sociology but not philosophy) bear with a random example: one cannot even harmlessly sunbathe nude in a public place without offending someone grievously, and many other examples come to mind. A terribly (for those who value maximum freedom) long time 'till anything approaching libertarianism is 'practicable'.The rights of the collective unfortunately trump the individual, national interest is even more powerful; so the closest I can at this time get in the direction of libertarianism is moderate conservatism. Not to say freedom-seeking is escapism, yet freedom is, again unfortunately, confined to a low level for the foreseeable future-- to the degree that humans, males at least, are dominated by their animalistic appetites. If such isn't too essentialist, one might say it is the heart of what is IMO a genuine conservatism.



P. Lin:
"But again, to ensure that we're not following rote dogma, we should consider scenarios in which curtailing liberty in the name of security might be justified as the first option. Are there any?"

No. Never.

The difference between a "Law" and a "Principle" is that a "Law" is based on a principle, but is codified, and enforced.

We can look to the open source movement (see Clay Shirky) to begin to get a grip on which Principles are universal.

I suggest Autonomy is at the top of the list.

Why? Because a person who values Autonomy above all else, will NOT interfere with the Autonomy of another. And that's what crime is: interfering (either through force or fraud) with another's Autonomy.
By instilling this Principle of Autonomy in people, we increase the chance that those very same people will not want to interfere with the Autonomy of others, because they value Autonomy itself, and for itself.

How?

Because Autonomy means not interfering with Autonomy, the only way we can do this is by NOT practicing Authority over others, to set an example, and to inform and educate people to the best of our ability as to why this Principle is important. The more people understand this, the less they require Laws to guide their lives.
Laws sub-consciously make people seek Principle less, precisely because it's an external agent that does all the "work" for you. Why bother internalizing Principles, when you have an "automated" Law to do it for you?
This is why there are so many stupid criminals (ever wonder why so many people commit crimes that are so idiotic (as in easy to catch) on the face of it? - it's because having a codified system of Laws has usurped people's natural tendency to understand consequence - it's desensitized us to the real consequences, because there is always a "Law" to take care of that, therefore we don't need to think about it).

Retributive legal systems always lead to an epidemic of "criminal culture" (a phrase that shouldn't even exist imho).
Restorative and harm-reduction legal systems are better (though not perfect - always room for improvement).

Regulating DIY labs will be more disastrous than the War on Some Drugs.



@ iPan:

So...you think the right thing to do is to not detain all the innocent shoppers (without cause), even at the expense of letting the bomber escape and kill many people?

I get your point about internalizing principles instead of obeying laws, but this seems to be another case of looking good on paper but impossible to implement and probably dangerous to try (to replace all laws with personal principles), given human unpredictability and violent/criminal tendencies of at least some.

That point aside, I think autonomy/liberty is much more complex than you suggest. You said "autonomy means not interfering with autonomy", but this seems to get it backwards: Given a certain population density (e.g., any US city), you can hardly do anything that doesn't interfere with someone else's choices or preferences. If I take a parking spot, then someone else has a harder time looking for parking. If I express support for a political candidate or issue, then someone inevitably will be offended. If I wear a loud shirt, then someone will be annoyed. If I take a job, that's one less job out there for someone who needs it. Thus the irony is that, to respect the autonomy of others, I couldn't exercise my own at all.

The trick, then, isn't to recognize autonomy as an important value -- I think most of us do already, at least our own autonomy. Rather, it's in finding the balance between rights and responsibilities or, in this case, between our autonomy and that of others. In the ticking-time-bomb case, it's about the related balance between liberty and security.



Related: http://www.usatoday.com/tech/science/2010-07-12-technology-disasters_N.htm

iPan's Autonomy is the ideal we should strive for, much like we should strive for perfect justice, while recognizing that it is a goal we shall likely not attain in our lifetimes.

Something to note, a lack of Autonomy (and the reliance on Law, and therefore government, to handle every little detail of our interactions) is what gives rise to attitudes like, "Why do you feel you need to defend yourself, just call the police, they will protect you." A tall order considering that even in the cities with the highest officer to citizen ratio, you have about 1 cop per 1000 citizens. Self defense starts with self.



The more laws and order are made prominent The more thieves and robbers there will be.
-Lao Tzu

A leader is best when people barely know he exists, when his work is done, his aim fulfilled, they will say: we did it ourselves.
-Lao Tzu

If you want to be a great leader,
you must learn to follow the Tao.
Stop trying to control.
Let go of fixed plans and concepts,
and the world will govern itself.

The more prohibitions you have,
the less virtuous people will be.
The more weapons you have,
the less secure people will be.
The more subsidies you have,
the less self-reliant people will be.

Therefore the Master says:
I let go of the law,
and people become honest.
I let go of economics,
and people become prosperous.
I let go of religion,
and people become serene.
I let go of all desire for the common good,
and the good becomes common as grass.
-Lao Tzu



Right, so the best point brought up in defense of Authority so far is practicality and implementation.
And I agree.
It's going to be TOUGH.
I point towards the open source movement, and social media (again, look at Clay Shirky - and other videos on TED - for an overview of how this is working) as the TEMPLATE for how society begins to make a serious effort towards this.
It's already in motion right now.
One can only make a choice to support, encourage, and nurture it, or not.
Or, we can cling to the Dinosaur Paradigm.



Agree that autonomy (if we're using that term correctly) and less reliance on law would be ideal. If we could create society from scratch, that would be a good design. But given the way society already is, and how many people are, it's not clear to me how iPan's ideal world could actually be achieved.

This is a similar worry raised with respect to repealing the 2nd Amendment: It would be great if we could outlaw guns so that no one has any, but given our starting point today (with 200+ million privately-owned firearms), the practical challenges are significant...but maybe not impossible to solve.

So iPan might be able to get his/her utopia eventually...but, as usual, the devil is in the details...



Hey, it is possible to agree on something on a blog post! Or at least to have a respectful conversation.

But not to spoil the happy kumbaya feelings, what should we do about the possible dangers of DIY science, given how the world is today? Indoctrinating entire populations to a set of principles (which have yet to be determined or clearly articulated) would take generations, at best. By that time, much damage could be done by emerging technologies.

The most practical and implementable solution may be a legal or regulatory one, even though law is a blunt and imperfect instrument. Just saying that it shouldn't be taken off the table on the strength of some utopian-anarchist vision or without a plausible near-term alternative...



Plenitude: The economist Juliet Schor
http://ieet.org/index.php/IEET/more/schor20100709/

Clay Shirky: How cognitive surplus will change the world
http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/eng/clay_shirky_how_cognitive_surplus_will_change_the_world.html

Clay Shirky: How cellphones, Twitter, Facebook can make history
http://blog.ted.com/2009/06/clay_shirky_how.php

The End of Education: Ben Goertzel
http://ieet.org/index.php/IEET/more/goertzel20100626/


The cool thing is that you've realized that Autonomy IS the ideal direction we should be going.
The above links are just examples of (there are hundreds more) of HOW we are going to do it.



Or, in other words, now that we know the destination, all we need to do is reverse engineer it.



"Just saying that it shouldn't be taken off the table on the strength of some utopian-anarchist vision or without a plausible near-term alternative... "

Like an addict, eh?
Aww, c'mon guys, just one more hit.
"jane says, gonna kick tomorrrrrrrrrrrow"
-Janes Addiction

Unfortunately, Patrick, one can only begin to walk out of the mud by beginning to walk out of the mud, not by rationalizing why we're in it in the first place.
A journey of a thousand steps starts with one.



I've said somewhere before: I appreciate the optimism. As GB Stern said, "Both optimists and pessimists contribute to our society. The optimist invents the airplane and the pessimist the parachute."

But I don't see that your stuck-in-mud analogy applies here, to the extent I understand it. A more relevant analogy to what we're talking about here, again, seems to be the ticking-time-bomb case:

How do you save a store full of shoppers with a bomber running loose? Would we be justified in doing something drastic like detain everyone in order to catch the bomber? Or are you really proposing to launch a global campaign for peace, love, and understanding instead? What makes more sense for this particular scenario?

It's always unpleasant to think we would ever sacrifice principles for pragmatism. But I wonder if, given the chance, MLK Jr. would allow himself to be shot, just to stick with his principles of nonviolent confrontation; or would he turn to violent self-defense to save his own life? Would an anarchist accept the protection and intervention of law enforcement to protect his/her own life, in spite of moral issues with authority?

I'm guessing that the instinct of self-preservation would win in these and most other cases (but maybe not all, e.g., if you have to sacrifice yourself to save your child). I think this is what we're talking about here: the survival of our society in the face of impending danger, as posed by DIY science.

And why shouldn't it be possible to pursue both near-term and far-term strategies, i.e., law/regulation now but ultimately strive for world peace, etc. for the long run? If world peace is achievable with X number of laws in place today, why wouldn't it still be achievable with X+n laws?



You guys just don't get it... it's not autonomy, its not about restricting liberties and freedoms... oh no... its about personal responsibility driven by "social contract".. tsk tsk

How long it takes you to achieve this understanding is up to you.. I suggest begin teaching your children today.

I've been caught stealing;
once when I was 5...
I enjoy stealing.
It's just as simple as that.
Well, it's just a simple fact.
When I want something,
I don't want to pay for it.

Janes Addiction - "Been caught stealing"



So far, no one has offered a direct response to the ticking-time-bomb scenario I posed: What is the right thing to do in such a case?

Now, whether that case is analogous in any way to DIY science is a separate matter, which we can also discuss. But interesting that no one is willing to offer a solution.

(A plan that takes a generation or more to implement isn't a real solution here, since all the shoppers will be dead by then...unless you're willing to sacrifice their lives to serve some greater good; if so, then say so.)

I think your answers will be informative and maybe even surprising to yourself...



@ Patrick..

I'm not sure what you really want? Are you proposing some kind of DIY lockdown… if so, then say it loud and clear. And then contemplate exactly how far you would go.. how far you would be willing to forsake your liberty and freedoms in the name of fear and paranoia.

Personally I don't think we need to restrict freedoms, as stated above. There are many good ideas already added here by one and all, (Anarchy aside). These combined, should be more than enough to tackle any manic threats and loose canons.

Quote : "What if a person known to have a ticking-time bomb were to run into a crowded store. Wouldn't we be justified in detaining all those shoppers, even without reasonable cause, to find the bomber? The reason would be that the stakes are so high (bomb) and time to deliberate or test out other options does not exist (tick tock)?"

The scenario here is a bit vague, but none-the-less this is what usually happens anyhow. In a bank heist, hostages are regularly de-briefed before they are let loose, just in case they are not who they appear to be, (members of the gang). As far as the tick tock scenario is concerned, the priority is to find the bomb. Usually the manic bomber wants to draw attention to himself/herself and be heard.. thus their identity is not usually withheld. It is then up to the negotiators and bomb disposal to find out more info. about the type of device and to decide on a course of action. If in doubt send in the SWAT team to kick ass and shoot everyone in sight..only kidding.. (or am I? ;0])

Even terror cells need to use mobile phones and communicate, and use the Internet, so unfortunately we all have a price to pay for freedom and use of these media, and increased surveillance is already well in hand. Now how about having your DNA listed from birth and kept just in case you did something radical or naughty.. would you agree with that?

Ps. Guess what I'm watching at this very moment?… "V for Vendetta"… I kid you not, have you seen it?

Other movies worth a mention..

"the Satan bug"
"Minority report"
"1984"



"its about personal responsibility driven
by 'social contract'.."


Social contract today means you get the state to transfer more funds to your wealthy parents & grandparents so they are better off than the Joneses. You don't think there is anyone over the age of 23 who doesn't know it, do you? the joke is: Gramps once climbed the beach at Iwo Jima, now he climbs the steps at his accountant's office to make sure he gets his share of tax write-offs.
Please understand, I am the second most gullible person who ever lived; so if I can't be conned anymore, then no one can be.



@ Cygnus:

I'm not proposing a DIY lockdown or anything specific...just the possibility that we may need to consider trading in some liberty for security, though several folks here believe this to be unthinkable.

Your description of a bank-heist scenario isn't quite analogous to the ticking-time bomb, in that you're talking about questioning witnesses after the fact, whereas I'm talking about talking liberties away without due process. A better example is from 2002, when Russia gassed a theater full of people, just to knock out (and then kill while asleep) some hostage takers: here

Anyway, I still don't hear any immediate solutions to the ticking-time-bomb case. Which solutions raised by others on this thread are you referring to exactly?



Anyway, I still don't hear any immediate solutions to the ticking-time-bomb case. Which solutions raised by others on this thread are you referring to exactly?


I said earlier that a temporary suspension of some civil liberties while directly dealing with a crisis is OK, as long as the duration is very short, and no one is injured or molested in the process. So detaining everyone in a store that a suicide bomber entered is OK, provided that the authorities know they have enough time to find the bomb before it detonates in a crowded space. If they don't know how much time, or they don't know the ID of the bomber, then they are obligated to take measures to minimize potential damage (and keeping everyone crowded into a store will not minimize damage).

However, other suspensions during a crisis are beyond the pale, like when the police disarmed the people of NOLA after Katrina, and left them defenseless prey to sociopaths in a lawless area.

The balance that needs to be sought is one of respecting the rights & liberties of citizens while working to deal with the crisis. Maintaining this balance is NOT easy, and it was specifically designed to be difficult for authorities.

The reason it was designed that way was because the old saying is true, power corrupts. Politicians & Bureaucrats have the power of regulation over our lives, and they have the police to enforce those regulations. Police have the power of arrest and detainment and the power of life & death over citizens, and all of that is an intoxicating brew that already attracts far too many bullies, tin pot dictators, and egomaniacs to those positions.

I understand your position, Patrick, that there is a potential threat from DIY science, either through accident or malice. The position that I think a lot of people here take, me included, is that granting more authority to government in a vain hope of averting disaster is a fools errand that will result in the loss of the ability to do small scale science freely while granting authorities more power & political cover to infringe on people's civil rights.

We've already experienced this with terrorism and all the abuses of civil rights in the name of safety that came with that. Many of us are not eager to do it again, only harder.

My earlier suggestions of creating an open, transparent environment for DIY science, while have authorities just keep track of key materials & equipment (so they know who to check in on every once in a while), and maybe create some kind of very accessible permitting process, is likely more than sufficient to prevent 99% of accidental damages. Only solid police work can hope to stop criminal damages.



This gives other examples of what I mean by unacceptable restrictions on liberty.

When those in positions of authority are better about respecting rights & liberties, or at least are consistently held accountable for violating the same, then I will be a lot more open to the idea of having government watchdogs over DIY science. As it stands, our politicians, bureaucrats, and police are rarely held to account. They might be exposed, but they are rarely punished nearly anywhere as severely as a private citizen would be if they had done the same.



News story on how greater transparency/more facts might not make for a stronger, more responsible democracy: here



@Lin

To answer the last post: Transparency BY ITSELF is insufficient. It also requires the ability to UNDERSTAND what is really happening, which means being able to see through deceptions, misinformation, distractions, "spin" and all other obfuscations intended to enable an escape of accountability.

For transparency in government to really benefit a society, then all means to avoid accountability must be minimized. This cannot be done in a society in which secrecy is held paramount. Secrecy is the enabler of avoidance of accountability.




In regards to the DIY question. DIY involves individuals, who in general are seeking to create things to improve society at large. Why? Because by doing so they will win status for themselves and will thus gain access to a larger percentage of the total collective's resources. Thus the vast majority have positive motives, with only a tiny percent of them having potentially negative motives. In this regard, they are identical to the scientist of historical times. They communicate with each other, and create a society in which positive contributions gain more "status" than negative ones, and are thus to a large extent self-regulating. Any "Criminal" DIY is unlikely to be a part of this society, because negative contributions would lower status. Thus a criminal DIY program is highly likely to be associated with other criminal societies which are rightly the jurisdiction of the police.

Additionally individual DIYs are unlikely to command the vast resources of a Corporation, making the amount of damage they could do in all cases limited. Even if a "supervirus" was created, it would require a vast distribution network to evade the protections we already have in place against "epidemics" already.

The scales needed are just to large, Patrick. I think you are oversimplifying the hurdles that would need to be overcome to present a truly valid "Mass threat" by DIYs.



What Valkyrie said. grin



Another's take on the Boston Globe article.



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